I would love to get an answer to this very question...My dog points very well, but refuses to pick up the birds..

Joel,
Force breaking is a very effective way of insuring that your dog will retrieve when needed. All of my dogs have been force broke, and I have had many. I feel the most important part of this procedure is that you are properly trained in what you are doing. This method could cause problems down the road if you don't really know what you are doing. I learned by attendeng seminars by Delmar Smith. He was very good with dogs and people. I suggest reading a book on this, watching a video or better yet attend a seminar. Delmar's son now gives them and I here he also is very good. Bill - Mill Creek Kennel

I've force broken most of my dogs (Brittanys and Labs) with good results. Some of my Brittanys were not crazy about retrieving, and force training did the trick. My latest dog is a little female British Lab. She has a very strong retrieving instinct--I don't think I will need to force break her. So, I'd say it depends on the dog. If you're not getting a consistent retrieving performance, force breaking will work. But you need to do it right, and do it gently but firmly. Many books explain the technique, but I follow the steps laid out by James B. Spencer in his books "Point" or "Training Retrievers."

Dave

My almost 3-year-old Brittany is a very good natural retriever but often drops the bird rather than deliver to hand and in trials has more than once decided to play "keep away," costing a placement. I have decided to force break him this summer but am squeamish even tho I have watched videos, read books and seen Rick Smith demonstrate it in person three times. I believe the training will strengthen the bond between us....and hopefully make him more bulletproof on coming when called, as well.

Force breaking a dog to retrieve will NOT make him bulletproof on a recall. Force breaking is advanced yard training. A dog should reliably whoa, come and heel BEFORE he begins the force retrieve. Without this foundation, you can get yourself in much trouble and confuse the dog. For example, imagine the scenario: You have spent two or three weeks on the retrieve at short reaches...either with the toe pinch on a table or the ear pinch on the ground with a leash. (I don’t use an e-collar to train the force retrieve). Your dog has graduated to longer distances. You send him out on a retrieve, he picks up the dummy, but does not come back to you. He has executed the beginning part of the retrieve right but now you have to correct him for not coming to you. In the process of correcting him for not coming, he drops the dummy. Now you have to correct him for dropping the dummy. You see the confusion created in the dog's mind? Build on the dog’s training. When the dog is reliable at one thing, you can add the next, more complex command.

I highly recommend Bill Koehler's (The Koehler Method of Open Obedience for Ring, Home and Field) method of force training the retrieve. It differs significantly from other methods I know in that you spend the first week placing the dummy in the dog's mouth (over 100 times) so when you first say 'fetch' or 'hold', the dog understands the command and is given the opportunity to make the right choice to open his mouth and accept the dummy. Other methods rely on the toe or ear pinch to cause the dog to open his mouth the very first time. Koehler's method creates a very different attitude in the dog from the very beginning. I have force broken at least a dozen dogs using his method. I enjoy the process and the result is a 100% reliable and happy retrieving dog.

In my experience, dogs that are force broke poorly and without a good foundation, display the result of incoherent training by mouthing birds, burying birds and other unwanted behavior. If you are not prepared to take the time to do it right, regardless of which method you use (Rick Smith's is certainly a good one), you are better off not attempting the force retrieve. And you can not be squeamish. The dog will sense your hesitation and reluctance and that will defeat the purpose. Good luck!

Chris

I have a 3 year old GSP that is I want to get into the NAVHDA Utility Test but her fetching is hit and miss (mostly miss), she retrieves as a 'game' and not as a command. She is my first working dog and loves to hunt both upland and waterfoul but 75% of the time, I am the only bringing in the ducks from the water. I have guys that want me to force break her but I'm worried about how she will react to me after I do this. in fact I could use some advice since I just I am just dragging my feet on when, how long, what to prepare, etc. Help!

I have Small Munsterlanders and their retrieves would be great for many retrieves and then all of a sudden they would try to mess with you and drop the bird or not retrieve it at all. Since force breaking they know that they don't have any choice in the matter. They must retrieve whatever that you send them after.
I did my own dogs, but would caution any one that is not familiar with the process, to seek out professional help.There is nothing more satisfying than having your dog retrieving to hand. Lynn

I would be careful in deciding to force break a dog or not. Typically, the retriever folks use this method to get a consistent straight to hand retrieve as is needed in retriever trials. I have seen dogs that have undergone this training and while the retrieve is reliable it is not animated. I have Brittanys and I have had dogs that would charge out to retrieve, pick up the bird and come straight back at a gallop, and they did that because they loved doing it. I have had dogs that flat would not retrieve. You could put 200 birds in your vest a season because they hunted hard, pointed with intensity, and stood like statues. I had an owner of one of my pups try to get the dog force broke. Didn't work. Do not think that this is a bonding experience! If your dog holds a grudge, it may not hunt for you again. It may hunt hard and retrieve for the guy you sell him to but not for you. I prefer to work with dogs that are natural retrievers to encourage them to retrieve with gusto and animation.

This is a tough call. Most pros do not like to do it and it can clearly ruin an otherwise great dog. If you can get a dog to pick up a bird/dummy and bring it back to you, you can also make them fell like they are the best dog in the world and that by bringing the dumb bird back to you they can make you the happiest owner in the world it is a win win situation.

I have seen this done, I know the technique but I will never do it myself. I'd find a good pro, and probably a retriever guy that has done it a hundred times to do it. I wouldn't even show up until it is done because I would not want my dog to associate the training with me.

JMHO, Jerry

Force breaking to retrieve is simply a way to make sure the dog completes every retrieve. If that's important to you then you better force break the dog because sooner or later the dog will refuse to make a retrieve. I don't like the idea of a good dog dirtying its month by putting a bird in it but that's my preference.
If I wanted a dog to be force broke I would have it done by a professional who has a lot of experience at it. That way when problems come up a good professional will be better able to correct the problem.

Dave Towner

I have a three year old Gordon Setter that did NOT want to retreive in the beginning but was "force" broke with love and kindness ( No force or punishment judt guidence and praise) and now I have a fetching monster. she will find somthing to fetch and bug me (throw it at me) till I throw it for her.

Tom.

I have a little 2 yr old english cocker that retrieves anything with feathers. It could care less about anything else. What would be the reason to froce break this dog??

Thanks,


John

I believe in force breaking. Doesn't matter to me if the dog is going to be used for hunting trialing or hunt test. The idea is to get the dog happy and again. My dogs are done and retrieving birds at 3weeks and happy as if they have been doing all there live. Will bold a timid dog and make a hard head dog more bidable. Makes a dog watch you more Lot easy to steady to wing and shot

Hi Alan,

I am pretty opinionated on this subject and have also seen dogs ruined by it.

I have quite a few articles that I have penned over the years on my website. It is always my goal to educate and inform and if the information helps one person have a better relationship with their dog, then I have succeeded in that endeavor.

Anyway, you can go to www.SandStormKennels.com/articles and then just look for the one on Force Breaking. I think I wrote it last year so it should be near the top.

Any questions, please let me know.
Thx!
Sandy

No it is not always necessary. Some breeds such as Llewellin setters are natural in that area and can be wrecked if you try to train them this way.